Curse

UnChosen · Dec 13, 2009, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

A lot of assassin skills could be tweaked to make assassins more than just DB spammers.

I mean, Siphon Strength for example, is fairly great in PvP because players do under 300 damage per hit. Not so much in PvE. It could easily be changed to like...an AoE weakness-like hex without breaking THAT much (Enfeebling Blood...which isn't elite).

Expose Defenses could cause allies to deal additional physical damage, in addition to your unblockable attacks (similar to Barbs).

Enduring Toxin could spread to nearby enemies upon death.

Mantis Touch...god...needs a lot of work. A start would be making it do some unconditional damage...like 20...60...75 or something.

Honestly, you can take any terrible skill in the game and make it enticing. As for making PuGs want to take you...well...Paragons are STILL shunned by a lot of PuGs, even though imbagon is ridiculously overpowered.

That's because just have ONE good non-farming build generally is not enough, because its hard to get noticed. Also, people don't like the imbagon precisely because of the area design. DoA's very first monster are 100 life steal touchers....completely ignores SY!, and since paragon only has short bow range, its useless in a tank n' spank scenario.

Same thing with UW. To charge up SY! Paragons has to get in short bow range....but aatxe have 300dmg / hit, so if paragon goes up he just drag the aggro to the backline. He would have to wait for the prot to set or tank to grab aggro...but in that scenario SY! would also be unnecessary.

For sins, there's several good build (other than SF) which all revolves around skill spamming + crit agility. But one little enchant strip and the sin loses his damage AND his defense. In addition, if the enemy puts up a block, it also ruins the entire sin skill chain system, and possible causing crit agility to expire because the sin can't land a hit. Out of all the monsters in the entire GW world, I think enchant stripping and anti melee are like the most common. Combined with "death nova on death" monsters in factions...

Also, with stuff like stygian hunger and bladed aatxe in end game area, its inefficient to have more than one front liner. In DoA, one monk already need to dedicate himself to bonding the one tank, with another monk dedicated to spike healing that one tank, and one BiP dedicated to charging the monks because the damage is so high the monk would run out of energy...no group can afford bonding two tanks at once. So between all the melee, the warrior ends up winning the tanking war even though the sin ain't THAT bad with crit agil.

These are all stuff that needs to be addressed if they're going to nerf SF. All those profession all have one powerful build, but they mostly work to make easy stuff more easy rather than make hard stuff manageable.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

As for the direction of the assassin, I have always thought they should have more utility in PvE. Deadly Arts be offensive GROUP utility, Shadow Arts being defensive GROUP utility (though it does already have some...). My assassin was my main for the entire duration between factions and NF, and was the first to finish NF...but then my Paragon took over. Assassin just seems like so much lost potential.

Well, I'll have to disagree with you on this, Deadly arts and shadow arts have quickly fallen into a deep pit of obscurity and gimmick builds. Assassin's Promise is to me the only skill wroth the points in those two attributes, which says a lot. Shadow arts will be pointless if nothing is done post Sf nerf, and AP is starting to get some bad tides around it by people saying it is a broken skill. Relying on PvE skills hardly makes sins viable.

Steps_Descending · Dec 13, 2009, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Well, I guess that's starting to go into the "There should be more than one effective build". I mean, granted, a naked monk with no skills on his bar is "effective" for easy mode PvE....but classes shouldn't be a 1-trick pony. Don't get me wrong, 1-trick ponies are definitely better than a trickless pony, but they should have options. Necromancer for example...there's dozens of builds to run, all of which are pretty damn effective. Hell, even Dervish have various builds, and some skills to add onto their skillbars in certain situations.

Considering we can't really change the fact that sins are melee attackers :
They have an AoE spam build (DB)
They have scythe (some say they are the best at it, the rest say it's warriors)
They don't have a compact high damage single target build, yet. (closest is MS below 50%)
THey could have some decent Shadow Arts disrupt build.
Don't think there's really the place for another role.

Imagine the SA playing half disrupt (KD,Daze,Blind are already there), while dishing more damage than a ranger/elem doing the same job. Of course they are by nature a single target class like mesmer. So if they add AoE to skills would probably be small.
How does that sound?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Sins having to recast their enchantments mid-battle just to output a decent amount of damage is just pointless. and Fox's Promise can not be relied on because blind is just as plentiful as block in HM.

Is a 1 sec cast every 20 sec really that destructive for the DPS?
Lets see... The only counter I know for blind is removal or sight beyond sight. None of wich are up 100%.

Otherwise, how does that look : Golden Fox+WildStrike+ Shatering assault (if there are blocking enchants)/DB (otherwise).
Only counter left is blind, but it's not completely destructive.

EDIT : on a side note, after 40 pages, the conversation became useful.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

That's because just have ONE good non-farming build generally is not enough, because its hard to get noticed. Also, people don't like the imbagon precisely because of the area design. DoA's very first monster are 100 life steal touchers....completely ignores SY!, and since paragon only has short bow range, its useless in a tank n' spank scenario.

Same thing with UW. To charge up SY! Paragons has to get in short bow range....but aatxe have 300dmg / hit, so if paragon goes up he just drag the aggro to the backline. He would have to wait for the prot to set or tank to grab aggro...but in that scenario SY! would also be unnecessary.

For sins, there's several good build (other than SF) which all revolves around skill spamming + crit agility. But one little enchant strip and the sin loses his damage AND his defense. In addition, if the enemy puts up a block, it also ruins the entire sin skill chain system, and possible causing crit agility to expire because the sin can't land a hit. Out of all the monsters in the entire GW world, I think enchant stripping and anti melee are like the most common. Combined with "death nova on death" monsters in factions...

Also, with stuff like stygian hunger and bladed aatxe in end game area, its inefficient to have more than one front liner. In DoA, one monk already need to dedicate himself to bonding the one tank, with another monk dedicated to spike healing that one tank, and one BiP dedicated to charging the monks because the damage is so high the monk would run out of energy...no group can afford bonding two tanks at once. So between all the melee, the warrior ends up winning the tanking war even though the sin ain't THAT bad with crit agil.

These are all stuff that needs to be addressed if they're going to nerf SF.

The first 2 paragraphs...are you trying to explain how SY isn't strong? Because...um..."charging up" SY doesn't take much. Even if a cow attacks you, a decent monk will use Prot Spirit, you will get SY up, and the rest of your team will take no damage for the remainder of the battle. Hell, the mentality of those two paragraphs alone show what's wrong with PuGs. You have the tank n' spank mentality for everything...even UW. The only place it is remotely needed is DoA.

PuGs completely disregard any midline...it's "Tank, Monk (because rits can't heal ldo), and Damage". That's why assassins, mesmers, rangers, and paragons are excluded...and ironically enough, that is also why most pug groups fail. Using PuGs to judge the value of a profession/build/anything is pretty pointless.

UnChosen · Dec 13, 2009, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

The first 2 paragraphs...are you trying to explain how SY isn't strong? Because...um..."charging up" SY doesn't take much. Even if a cow attacks you, a decent monk will use Prot Spirit, you will get SY up, and the rest of your team will take no damage for the remainder of the battle. Hell, the mentality of those two paragraphs alone show what's wrong with PuGs. You have the tank n' spank mentality for everything...even UW. The only place it is remotely needed is DoA.

PuGs completely disregard any midline...it's "Tank, Monk (because rits can't heal ldo), and Damage". That's why assassins, mesmers, rangers, and paragons are excluded...and ironically enough, that is also why most pug groups fail.

But if a monk manages a prot spirit...is SY! necessary at all then? That's what I'm trying to say. SY! is powerful, but mostly in scenario where you can afford to have mobs running around in the backline/midline while you're charging/spamming SY! aka easy areas. What I find in more difficult areas, is that by the time the paragon get SY! up, either half the team already wiped, or the monk managed to protect everyone and SY! was just redundantly active. Either that or all the mob went to tank and have SY! on everyone end up completely pointless. As for DoA, even you agree with me so there.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Is a 1 sec cast every 20 sec really that destructive for the DPS?
Lets see... The only counter I know for blind is removal or sight beyond sight. None of wich are up 100%.

Otherwise, how does that look : Golden Fox+WildStrike+ Shatering assault (if there are blocking enchants)/DB (otherwise).
Only counter left is blind, but it's not completely destructive.

You need to take into account the normal sin bar, which consists of Crit Agility , maybe Crit defense , you might have Asuran Scan then their attack chain (sometimes with a self heal). Now you want to add in Fox's promise, this turns one blind into a scramble to get 2-4 skills up in a combat setting, which IS destructive to DPS. Along with the fact that one enchant removal ruins all of this. So yes, it is destructive.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

But if a monk manages a prot spirit...is SY! necessary at all then? That's what I'm trying to say. SY! is powerful, but mostly in scenario where you can afford to have mobs running around in the backline/midline while you're charging/spamming SY! aka easy areas. What I find in more difficult areas, is that by the time the paragon get SY! up, either half the team already wiped, or the monk managed to protect everyone and SY! was just redundantly active. Either that or all the mob went to tank and have SY! on everyone end up completely pointless. As for DoA, even you agree with me so there.

Wow.

I don't know how to respond to be quite honest. I mean, TNTF reduces damage from the cows by 35%, weakness (which any halfway decent team will have, in the form of Enfeebling Blood) reduces that damage down even further, and you completely charge SY! from one attack, which reduces damage for about 90%+. I really don't know wtf to say to you if you die before your Paragon gets off one attack.

Mustache Mayhem · Dec 13, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

yelling's never been out of normal mode

playing the assassin outside of an sf tank.. I like to use him as a barrage crit ranger- you can get some decent damage instead of trying to be up front with your enchantments ready to strip

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

You need to take into account the normal sin bar, which consists of Crit Agility , maybe Crit defense , you might have Asuran Scan then their attack chain (sometimes with a self heal). Now you want to add in Fox's promise, this turns one blind into a scramble to get 2-4 skills up in a combat setting, which IS destructive to DPS. Along with the fact that one enchant removal ruins all of this. So yes, it is destructive.

tbh, here is how my assassin goes through the game...when I'm just finishing quests etc with h/h.

Crit Agility, Locust's Fury, SY!, Wild Blow, Distracting Blow, rez

Have a smite monk hero use SoH on me, and an Orders nec with Either OoV or OoP, and Dark Fury. I just go through spamming SY!, and autoattacking for a bit over 80dps.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

tbh, here is how my assassin goes through the game...when I'm just finishing quests etc with h/h.

Crit Agility, Locust's Fury, SY!, Wild Blow, Distracting Blow, rez

Have a smite monk hero use SoH on me, and an Orders nec with Either OoV or OoP, and Dark Fury. I just go through spamming SY!, and autoattacking for a bit over 80dps.

The problem still persists, if you get one blind or enchant strip on you, your DPS is shot.

Also

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Crit Barrage is a disgrace mate

Steps_Descending · Dec 13, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

You need to take into account the normal sin bar, which consists of Crit Agility , maybe Crit defense , you might have Asuran Scan then their attack chain (sometimes with a self heal). Now you want to add in Fox's promise, this turns one blind into a scramble to get 2-4 skills up in a combat setting, which IS destructive to DPS. Along with the fact that one enchant removal ruins all of this. So yes, it is destructive.

1 thing concerning, the 2-4 skills : once the faght is started, teh 2 crits will sustain themselves, the only castings are Scan and Fox.
But a blind is indeed destructive.

But consider the second chain: 4 skills, that fit in your build with 1 optionnal (the heal, rez or reduce-cd-stance). In theory, you never stop attacking, but you'll miss a beat if you need to use ShatteringA. Yes it reduce your DPS, but you're free from block stances and enchantments, even Obsi won't stop you or your party. And Shattering will deal about the same amount as DB, but 1-target and non-AL-ignoring.

Now that I think about it, you're basically asking for a foolproof, no-cast-needed, block/blind-proof way chain one of the strongest combo in the game? Are you sure you're not asking too much? Or did I misunderstood something in what I'm looking for.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

The problem still persists, if you get one blind or enchant strip on you, your DPS is shot.

Not really...I mean, you do lose some DPS, but losing Crit Agility doesn't turn you into a level 5. I mean, you still hit for 60-70 damage every hit >_>

Not to mention that you can simply recast it.

People are making this game out to be way more difficult than it really is.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Now that I think about it, you're basically asking for a foolproof, no-cast-needed, block/blind-proof way chain one of the strongest combo in the game? Are you sure you're not asking too much? Or did I misunderstood something in what I'm looking for.

Well we have now come full-circle in this discussion, if you look at most battles, you will see that a Warrior has less down time than a sin with the added benefit of having more armor and generally more functionality in a PvE setting. If DB/MS get the unblockable buff, we will see a very good niche for a sin to fill while still being subject to enchant removal and other melee counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I mean, you still hit for 60-70 damage every hit >_>

You can say that about any melee class, and with this you must step back, recast, and then you can re-enter the fray, along with the lower armor, we can see why sins are shunned in a non SF world.

UnChosen · Dec 13, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Wow.

I don't know how to respond to be quite honest. I mean, TNTF reduces damage from the cows by 35%, weakness (which any halfway decent team will have, in the form of Enfeebling Blood) reduces that damage down even further, and you completely charge SY! from one attack, which reduces damage for about 90%+. I really don't know wtf to say to you if you die before your Paragon gets off one attack.

If you use Weakness AND TNTF AND Prot...then the team will survive whether SY! is used or not. Like I said, its not that SY! is a weak skill its that the scenario that it is actually required is not that much. In fact TNTF isn't really required if you have a weakness necro with some hexes, which is why paragon are not chosen in the first place. The paragon's TNTF reduction is nothing in comparison to weakness' 50% reducation, non-pve skill status, and 1 energy casting cost.

Mustache Mayhem · Dec 13, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

you pair with a rit splinter and pve skills.. the damage is pretty good- trying to play assassin as a damage dealer in pve hardmode is not really viable.. try that in practically any of the dungeons you'll find strips will leave you dead..

I wouldn't have an assassin deal damage on the frontline.. not saying can't be done, just asking for a headache.. why if sf does gets nerfed in pve- there's still monk tanks- but I mean really.. you still need a tank- if you rely on sy your still replacing one op skill with another.. just a different way to tank the damage

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

If you use Weakness AND TNTF AND Prot...then the team will survive whether SY! is used or not. Like I said, its not that SY! is a weak skill its that the scenario that it is actually required is not that much. In fact TNTF isn't really required if you have a weakness necro with some hexes, which is why paragon are not chosen in the first place.

Weren't you just complaining that the cows hit for 300 damage and it's really hard to survive long enough to get SY! up?

Weren't you also the one complaining that missions are too hard? That could have been someone else, but if it wasn't...lol

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustache Mayhem

you pair with a rit splinter and pve skills.. the damage is pretty good- trying to play assassin as a damage dealer in pve hardmode is not really viable.. try that in practically any of the dungeons you'll find strips will leave you dead..

I wouldn't have an assassin deal damage on the frontline.. not saying can't be done, just asking for a headache.. why if sf does gets nerfed in pve- there's still monk tanks- but I mean really.. you still need a tank- if you rely on sy your still replacing one op skill with another.. just a different way to tank the damage

SY! is actually a double edged sword.

I mean, it is ridiculously overpowered, without a doubt, and it does really pigeon-hole Paragons into using it (partly because a lot of skills need adjusted, and partly because it's so f'ing strong). However, it does allow balanced, non-cookie cutter parties in a lot of places, rather than taking away from it like most farming overpowered skills do.

To be honest, the people who are so valiant in "everyone should be able to do everything in the game" should be backing up the imbagon instead of a terribly gimmick/broken skill like SF. SY! allows everyone to do basically everything in the game, while still promoting teamplay, and fundamental game mechanics.

reaper with no name · Dec 13, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

I can't believe people are actually saying that assassins will be useless after SF is nerfed. Even without it, sins are one of the most powerful classes in the game.

MSDB. Critscythe. Crit Barrage. AP. That right there is more "good" builds than the dervish and paragon have combined.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

MSDB. Critscythe. Crit Barrage. AP..

Crit Barrage is useless in HM

Ap is used by other classes or sins using gimmick builds.

Critscythe and MSDB share common weaknesses.

Steps_Descending · Dec 13, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Well we have now come full-circle in this discussion, if you look at most battles, you will see that a Warrior has less down time than a sin with the added benefit of having more armor and generally more functionality in a PvE setting. If DB/MS get the unblockable buff, we will see a very good niche for a sin to fill while still being subject to enchant removal and other melee counters.

What do you mean by downtime? Unless you're stripped, you will only have Scan to cast, which is not so usefull in AoE situation and which the warrior will also cast. And you are not destroyed by the strip it's either blocking or IAS, the chain is unaffected. Concerning the attack time, even if you cast more, a warrior can also be blocked(and has less way to play around it) and if he does AoE like the sin, he needs Cyclone axe/Wirling attack (less than 20 AoE every 2 sec like you) or 100Blades/WirlingAttack (which is every 4 sec with double adren on auto attack), so his "efficient" time is weaker as well as his damages/attack (which makes DPS even smaller).
Then there's the case where both are doing spike damage : warrior are more efficient with DragonSLash, but that's probably it : The other options are probably inferior to a sin's spike. (added :My main's not a warrior, did you guess?)

The way I understand it, DB spam (not DB/MS) can already be completely unblockable at the cost of missing some DB with the Shattering chain. With higher AoE and equal weakness vs most counter (accept block).

EDIT :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Ap is used by other classes or sins using gimmick builds.

It is used at all in common builds? Or otherwise, is every spike build (where it could be used) a gimmick